These are a pair of television interviews (promoting the novel Cat Magic) which may have created an impression that Whitley Strieber was some kind of “witch”. As part of his research for the novel Cat Magic (written in 1983 but published in 1986), he visited with some Wiccans, who are sometimes referred to as “witches” despite the obvious expectation that term creates. A second source for this rumour was from an interview in the book Faces of Fear, in which Mr. Strieber relates “I have been a witch” without providing the Cat Magic context. The complete line in fact reads “I have been a witch. I have experimented with worshipping the earth as a goddess/mother,” and comes as part of a two paragraph description of his personal beliefs, which range from elements of Zen to the Episcopalian religion. Strieber was raised Roman Catholic. If one believes that Wiccans are the same as Satanists (a belief Wiccans would dispute), one must remember that Mr. Strieber makes it clear that he was not presented with any evidence of that, and given his experience with an actual Wiccan community, he does not believe it to be true. If he must be despised for having an opinion, so be it, but recognize that he was only honestly stating what his experience led him to believe.
THE OPRAH WINFREY SH0W Show #W.203
~Note: The guest "Joseph Marquis" appears to have been using a pseudonym derived from the name of a 19th century occultist (?), Marquis Joseph Alexandre Saint Yves d'Alveydre (1842-1910).
~Note: The guest Bob Larson later wrote a book entitled UFOs and the Alien Agenda (1997) which includes a missive about his experience on the OPRAH show, including his memories of their off-air banter. He does not mention the Marquis guest, but describes his interactions with Cabot and Strieber during the commercial breaks as nearly coming to blows. Adding to his colorful recollections is this statement, which Larson offers as an explanation for why Strieber did not like him: “I believe the beings who abducted [Whitley Strieber] were the demons he suggested they might be, and their hatred of God influenced his conduct on the OPRAH show.”
THE OPRAH WINFREY SH0W Show #W.203
Air Date: June 24, 1987
"Witches"
Guests:
Laurie Cabot, official witch of Salem
Dora Ruffner, white witch
Joseph Marquis, claims to be former satanic priest and murderer
Whitley Strieber, author
Bob Larson, Christian minister
OPRAH WINFREY: Toil and trouble.
That's what's been bubbling across this country ever since the
new movie The Witches of Eastwick started production last year.
Witches throughout America are outraged by the film's portrayal
of them. Let's take a look at one of the scenes from Witches of
Eastwick that has caused such controversy. And here it is now.
[clip from "The Witches of Eastwick"]
WINFREY: Well, my first guest led
a protest picketing the state film bureau, saying that the film's
portrayal of witches was unfair. She says that witchcraft and
satanism are two different belief systems and that witches have
never believed in or worshipped Satan. She also says that Christians
created all of those monstrous stories about bad witches. Meet
the official witch of Salem, Massachusetts, Laurie Cabot. My next
guest calls herself a white witch and specializes in shamanic
healing, working with people to help them get in touch with their
natural forces. She says that witchcraft is a true religion of
true magic. Dora Ruffner is her name. And my next guest says that
after spending I g years as a high satanic priest, he knows that
witchcraft is evil. lie claims that the only way to escape once
you've joined is to either be killed or saved by Jesus Christ.
Meet Joseph Marquis. Welcome them all to the show. Glad to have
you.
Now, many people have seen The Witches of Eastwick and view it
as just a light-hearted, funny, amusing, entertaining [movie],
Jack Nicholson is wonderful, and say that they don't come away
feeling that witches are bad.
LAURIE CABOT, official witch of Salem:
Well, that's sort of like saying, okay, we're going to do a racial
picture, but it's not going to be racist. We're going to do a
picture, and this young boy is going to have only- this black
boy is only going to have a little piece of watermelon in his
mouth and he's only going to shuffle a little bit in the show,
and he's really- he really is friends with the guy in the big
house, it's okay. It's not okay because we don't do evil with
our psychic abilities, and that's what it's portraying. And our
psychic abilities are part of our way of life - it's part of our
religion, our art, our science.
WINFREY: You see it as being a negative
portrayal in the same way that black people being portrayed as
shuffling along, eating watermelon and fried chicken, is bad,
and Indians in all the westerns are the bad guys - in that way?
Ms. CABOT: Absolutely. There was
a movie that just came out for children called My Little Pony,
and in it there were three bad witches, not three bad Buddhists
and not three bad Baptists, you know. There were three bad witches,
and they were cackling and green. You know, we're always green
with a wart on our nose. Snaggly teeth, you know. And yes, oh
yeah, I wear black. Black to us is a tool. So do priests, nuns,
rabbis wear black. The High Dalai Lama wears black in one of his
highest rituals. We've done this, and this is one of the recorded
things about witchcraft from the Celtic tribes, is that we wear
long black robes. And I chose to do that because it's a statement,
it's a political statement, and that's why I do it all the time.
WINFREY: Well, if The Witches of
Eastwick is a poor portrayal, I would think that The Wizard of
Oz is an incredibly bad portrayal for witches.
Ms. CABOT: Right, well, the good
witch was in pink, though. She wasn't in black, of course, so
that makes it okay. And the whole issue is that the word "witch"
comes from the word "megus," -
WINFREY: Wicca-
Ms. CABOT: -"magi" and
"magi." [?] "Magisus" [?] still means "witch"
in Greece today, and it means "wise people." And the
word came from the word "wise." "Wit," "whit"
and "witch." And by the time it got to witch, in the
middle ages, is- during the reformation and the forming of Christianity,
who- Christianity-we're not anti-Christian, by the way. Satanic
people are anti-Christian because Christianity has a Satan in
their deity structure, people who went against Christians. We're
pre-Christian. We've been here since the beginning of time. We
come out of the Celtic tribes. We've never changed our ways. We
brought with us the sense of healing, the sense of using our psychic
abilities. We wear black because it's a tool - it's like wearing
a rainbow, it draws in light, so it helps us to be more balanced
and psychic. We use our tools, we emulate our gods and goddesses
by dressing and wearing makeup, and that's our emulation.
WINFREY: Would you agree, though,
Dora, that just as there are good Baptists and had Baptists and
good Catholics and good Buddhists and bad ones, that there are
good witches and bad witches who perhaps do practice evil?
DORA RUFFNER, white witch: I think
that there are people who try to practice evil of all persuasions.
WINFREY: Right.
Ms. RUFFNER: I don't know if the
problem is that they're actually practicing evil or that they
separate their own badness. I think everybody has within themselves
dark and light.
WINFREY: I think that too.
Ms. RUFFNER: And if they think that
they're practicing evil, what they're actually doing is they're
separating their shadow from themselves and projecting that onto
something else.
WINFREY: I know that. In metaphysical
terms that's exactly what they're doing, but it comes out in the
exteriorization, and the manifestation is that it's evil. Regardless
of whether it's separation of light and dark, the conscious mind
from the subconscious mind, it still looks like, feels like, is
tangibly evil.
Ms. RUFFNER: Tastes like, yes. And
you will have even people who say that they're practicing good-
in fact, sometimes the people who say they're doing the most good
are projecting the most evil, because in order to feel that they're
good they have to see the evil outside themselves.
WINFREY: On the other hand you've
been a high priest.
JOSEPH MARQUIS, former satanic priest:
For 18 years, OPRAH. I first started when I was at the age of
five. I first- somebody had sent a demon to me. Now, I'm talking
about a literal figurative entity, something that you can actually
reach out to. Eventually as the years passed on-
WINFREY: Somebody sent the demon
to you?
Mr. MARQUIS: Right. I'm positive
I know who it was.
WINFREY: Okay. Why? As a five-year-old
they sent the demon to you?
Mr. MARQUIS: Well, as a matter of
fact there are witch queens right now over entire states who are
only 13 years old. Their word is law. Going back to what you were
saying about The Wizard of Oz, The Wizard of Oz was one of the
first movies ever where we saw a portrayal of a good witch. I
mean, now that philosophy is changing. Before, we used to think
of witchcraft from the scriptural point of view as being evil.
Now suddenly there's a shift.
WINFREY: What is the shift?
Mr. MARQUIS: That there is now a
good side.
WINFREY: To the witches.
Mr. MARQUIS: To witchcraft.
WINFREY: Were you a witch?
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, I was. I was a
practicing one for 18 years.
WINFREY: You were a practicing witch,
and that's what you called yourself.
Mr. MARQUIS: Right. As a matter
of fact, the first thing I started off as was with what's known
as the earth mother religion. You believe in the plurality of
gods and goddesses. Eventually-
WINFREY: Which is what Laurie has
been telling us.
Mr. MARQUIS: Basically. Eventually
as I got to the higher levels, your philosophy is changed. You
are now told what's really going on. Now, a lot of witches today,
independent witches, people who are doing it by themselves and
those who haven't really reached the higher levels yet, honestly
believe that there's just, you know, this earth mother religion.
After you get to the higher levels, you're actually told what
God you're worshipping. We call him Satan, okay, but they call
him Lucifer. This group I'm talking about is known as the illuminati.
They are the most powerful, subversive group that's ever existed
in all of man's history.
WINFREY: And where are they existing,
here?
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes. As a matter of
fact, they've already infiltrated our government. On the back
of the one dollar bill you will find three hexagrams and a pentacle.
The hexagram with that symbol and the circle around it, a witch
can summon up a demon. Demons you order about, you know, to cause
things to happen. It's not something psychic or we have, you know,
this innate power within us. It's the ordering about of demons.
WINFREY: So other people can order
demons to you, to whomever.
Mr. MARQUIS: If you know how to
do it.
WINFREY: If you know how. You say
that's true or not true, Laurie?
Ms. CABOT: It's not true.
WINFREY: We'll be right back.
[commercial break]
WINFREY: My next guest started out
to write a horror novel about witchcraft, but says that after
researching witches he discovered only goodness and beauty. lie
says that witches he met doing research for this book Cat Magic
were no more evil than Christians or the practitioners of any
other perfectly legitimate religion. Although he is not a witch
himself he has participated in many Wiccan rituals. Please meet
Whitley Strieber. And my next guest is the host of a daily national
Christian radio show who says that witchcraft is not the harmless
nature religion that the media would have us believe, but it is
based upon beliefs that are dangerous to society. Meet Bob Larson
and welcome them both to the show.
So Whitley, you started out to write a book on witchcraft.
WHITLEY STRIEBER, author: Yeah,
a horror novel.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. STRIEBER: Expecting that it
would be about evil satanic witches, the kind that she was describing
just a moment ago with the green and the fangs and everything.
And I started my research by looking for some witches, and I found
some. I went out to Long Island and I found this terrible ritual
going on. They killed a little goat and it was horrible. I left
the place in disgust. I followed it up, and a week later discovered
that these people had performed a false ceremony for me, that
they weren't even witches, that they had to do with a very fanatical
religion of another type, a Christian little church out there,
and that there was something false about what had been done. And
I kept doing research. I finally found a witch named Margo Adler,
who's a very famous witch, and she showed me around to a lot of
other witches. And what I discovered was simply this: you take
all of the nonsense and the lies and the superstition and the
fear, mainly the fear that is in our hearts, away, and what you
have is just another human religion. That's all. And so it turned
out also to be a religion with really neat traditions, and it
made a wonderful book. I had more fun writing Cat Magic than I
ever have had writing one of my books.
WINFREY: So it's just another religion,
he says, Bob.
BOB LARSON Christian minister: Everybody's
left out the divine perspective. God's had something to say about
this for thousands of years, and when the theocratic sidle of
Israel was established and the people of God came into the promised
land, the Lord set down some priorities on how they were to conduct
their affairs and their forms of worship. He mandated capital
punishment against witches, not because lie's some harsh, vengeful
God but because he knew the ultimate destination of those who
followed the ways of Satan was hell, and God wanted to keep people
out of hell. The real issue is the ultimate intent of what witchcraft
means from Satan's standpoint. There's a very real devil, there
are very real demons, as this man pointed out a moment ago-
Mr. STRIEBER: Oh, there aren't.
Mr. LARSON: And this is not some
very harmless, benign belief system. The Bible tells us plainly
in Second Corinthians 11 Satan is transformed into an angel-
Mr. STRIEBER: You have-
Mr. LARSON: This gentleman is trying
to interrupt me over here. I tried to-[crosstalk]
WINFREY: One at a time. Let him
finish.
Mr. LARSON: I tried to meet this
young lady before the show, and this man was so obnoxious before
the show, he jumped in and wouldn't even let me meet this young
lady. I didn't even know who she was. I don't know what the problem
is.
Mr. STRIEBER: Oh, nonsense.
Mr. LARSON: This man is hardly an
objective spokesperson on behalf of witchcraft. Read the front
page of his book. It's an apologetic for witchcraft. What we're
dealing with here is an ideology rooted in the heart of Satan
that wants people to end up in hell, but on the surface wants
it to be philanthropically viewed. I want to know where her hospitals
are; I want to know where her homes - for the shelters, where
her food lines are; I want to know if there's anything she's ever
done to benefit humanity on a, constructive, institutional level.
Mr. STRIEBER: She hasn't got any
money. You've got it all. And she deserves some.
Mr. LARSON: Who says I've got the
money? You look at my bank account?
Mr. STRIEBER: Not you, but the religion
you represent
Mr. LARSON: You walk around this
city and you see how many hospitals there are in this city established
by Christians.
Ms. CABOT: I don't stand on street
corners and collect money because we don't recruit-
Mr. LARSON: How many witchcraft
hospitals are there?
Mr. STRIEBER: They don't have any
money.
Ms. CABOT: I don't recruit- [crosstalk]
WINFREY: We're going to have to
talk one at a time here.
Mr. STRIEBER: Because it's so small,
and it's small and it's innocent and it's vulnerable.
Mr. LARSON: She claims it's the
first religion. She's had a thousand years to get her act together.
Mr. STRIEBER: It does not need to
be hated anymore; the hate should end.
Mr. LARSON: Christianity has been
around 2,000 years.
Ms. CABOT: Christianity burned,
hanged and tortured nine million people during the reformation.
[crosstalk]
Mr. LARSON: The institution of Christianity
did not-
WINFREY: One at a time.
Mr. STRIEBER: Thank you, OPRAH.
I'm really not that obnoxious; I'll be nice.
WINFREY: Laurie?
Ms. CABOT: Yes. I said that Christianity,
when it came into existence- we've been in existence a long, long
time. We do not have devils, demons, and we don't have a Satan
in our deity structure. We do not believe in one; we still don't.
We don't do anything harmful. I'm a recognized reverend by the
United States government. I belong to the National Association
of Pantheists, and our ways are known by everyone. There is nothing
harmful in any-
Mr. LARSON: You're not responding
to the issue. Where are your hospitals? Where are
your homeless-[crosstalk]
WINFREY: Who's to say she has to
have hospitals, though?
Ms. CABOT: I don't have-
WINFREY: Who's to say she has to
have hospitals? [crosstalk] Let me just say this. Please let me
speak. There are other religions in this society - this is a society
in America that allows freedom of the practice of religion - and
there are religions, other religions other than the practicing
of witchcraft, that don't have hospitals, they don't have homes
for the aged, they don't have organizations structured so as to
promote the welfare of other people in society, okay. Please let
me finish. And so are you saying that because she doesn't do that,
that's not a legitimate religion?
Mr. LARSON: I'm saying Jesus Christ
made it very plain that spirituality, true spirituality and true
relationship with God, is proven by the fruit that it produces
in terms of helping humanity. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves.
WINFREY: But can you not help humanity
in other ways? Can you not help humanity in ways that don't necessarily
mean you form a hospital or home for the aged? Can't you help
humanity by loving your fellow man and being kind to your neighbor
and treating people-
Mr. LARSON: Do what thou wilt is
the whole of the law and harm none is a self aggrandizing, selfish
philosophy of witchcraft that is a far cry from turning the other
cheek, going the second mile and loving your neighbor as yourself,
and the contrast between witchcraft and Christianity is very vivid.
Why apologize for them? Why not ask them for the proof of the
fruit of what they've done to better humanity?
WINFREY: Okay, we will get the answer
to that question when we come back. Back in a moment.
[commercial break]
WINFREY: Laurie or Dora, do you
care to answer Bob's question?
Ms. RUFFNER: Well, I had a question,
which is that in helping humanity, many people- if it goes by
you that if you're not helping humanity in the way that you say-
it appears to be that you're helping humanity, that you are bad,
is it helping- if you are destroying the thing which sustains
humanity, which is the earth, the planet, our environment, which
is something that people in the cause of goodness and trying to
help themselves and other people have separated themselves, which
is why people are, I think, turning towards earth-centered religions.
If you are not also helping in that sense, then are you also evil?
Mr. LARSON: The Bible addresses
that issue in Romans Chapter 1. It says you can either worship
the creation or the creator, and witchcraft is the worship of
that which God made. Christianity and the Jewish faith teaches
that there is a transcendent God above and beyond and apart from
creation. We're not worried about a bunch of earth or a grove
of trees. What Christianity is concerned about-
Ms. RUFFNER: Now, wait a minute.
How do you know that a grove of trees-
Mr. LARSON: -is the ultimate God.
Ms. RUFFNER: How do you not know
that a grove of trees doesn't contain within it a piece of the
ultimate God?
Mr. LARSON: Because God says so.
God is God. God made the tree, and the one who made the tree is
greater than the tree.
Ms. RUFFNER: He made it and then
He left?
WINFREY: Okay. Laurie?
Ms. CABOT: That's the difference
in our belief. We believe that God exists in all things, in rocks
and stones and trees and within each one of us, and that we are
totally responsible for every thought and every action that you
have. A thought is a form of action. You know, thoughts are forms
of action.
Mr. LARSON: Then who are you accountable
to? The Bible teaches when we die-
Ms. CABOT: God.
Mr. LARSON: -we account to God.
You can't account to a stone.
Ms. CABOT: Goddess. We have a god
and a goddess, by the way.
Mr. LARSON: You're going to account
to this chair?
Ms. CABOT: We're leaving out the
goddess.
Mr. STRIEBER: I learned so much
about real reverence from these people, from the witches, more
than I ever learned before. Although I come from a very loving
Catholic home, I never knew what reverence for our earth could
be until I came into the presence of witches who loved it with
their blood. I never knew-
WINFREY: What do you mean with their
blood?
Mr. STRIEBER: I mean so deeply,
so deeply. No
WINFREY: I don't think that's such
a good example you're using.
Mr. STRIEBER: I think it is. I disagree
with you, OPRAH, I think it is a good example. Because what I
was trying to say is that they love it more deeply than I imagined
it could be loved.
WINFREY: Caller, you say what? Hello.
1st CALLER: Hello. I'd like to say,
how can you say that this is love and how can you say you came
from a Catholic or Christian home? My husband joined one of these
groups four years ago. My life turned into hell, literally. Because
there is no goodness; this is evil. My husband took off, he left
behind three kids, a job, a home and a lot of other real good
things going on in his life to be a part of this.
WINFREY: To be a part of what? See,
you have to tell us what "this" is.
1st CALLER: A witchcraft cult.
WINFREY: Witchcraft.
1st CALLER: Living in some witch
occult group up in a northern suburb.
WINFREY: Of Chicago?
1st CALLER: Yeah.
Ms. CABOT: Why would he have to
leave his family to do that? We have children and families. We're
human beings. I have two daughters.
1st CALLER: I have no doubts that
you have children. They attempted to kidnap my kids.
Ms. CABOT: We are airline stewardesses,
we are lawyers, we work, we are part of the community.
Mr. LARSON: She brings up a very
good point.
1st CALLER: I have no doubt that
you're in every comer of society. These people attempted to kidnap
my children. They caused us physical harm. They caused us emotional
harm. What they have done is destroyed basically what God put
together, a family.
Mr. STRIEBER: Well, that's very
sad-
WINFREY: Caller, could you not accept
this premise, just a possibility, just that there are people who
have wars and kill each other in the name of Jesus Christ, that
there are also people who practice witchcraft and do all kinds
of horrible, inhumane things to other people?
1st CALLER: Well, I know they do
this. I don't have to live with it or accept it. Four years ago,
for instance, my husband had a party at the house. We weren't
invited to it; he said it was a bachelor party. We came home to
find several people still at our house just kind of sitting- they
had killed three of our cats at one of these parties.
Mr. STRIEBER: A witch would never
kill a cat.
Mr. LARSON: That is not true. They
do it all the time.
Mr. STRIEBER: No, they don't.
Mr. LARSON: You can't get off the
hook that easy.
WINFREY: Please speak just- [crosstalk]
Mr. MARQUIS: OPRAH, there are eight
ceremonies on a witch's calendar. There are certain Sabbaths that
must be done every single year.
Ms. CABOT: That's not true.
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact-
WINFREY: Let him speak. Thank you.
Mr. MARQUIS: Four of them are definite
human sacrifice ones. The victims are easily picked up. They are
wandering teenagers looking for a good time, runaways, skid row
bums, paper boys, paper girls. You can go out to the street the
day before or the day during, pick up that child, drug him, or
whoever you want to, get him ready for the ceremony, and at that
time they will slice the person's throat open, pick up the blood
in a chalice, because they believe that the power in the blood
will add to them.
WINFREY: How do you know this?
Mr. MARQUIS: I wasn't the only one
who practiced this.
WINFREY: So have you practiced in
going out and picking up people off the street and slicing their
throats?
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, they were the
easiest ways to-
Ms. CABOT: And why aren't you in
jail?
WINFREY: Wait a minute. I want him
to say-
Ms. CABOT: Why didn't they kill
him, and why aren't you in jail?
WINFREY: Please let him speak.
Mr. MARQUIS: Sharon Tate-La Bianca's
murder, okay, was a witch's hitting. Sharon Tate wanted out, but
the thing is, the Illuminati-
WINFREY: What do you mean she wanted
out? She was a witch?
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, she was tired
of it. She wanted to get out, but the thing was-
WINFREY: Sharon Tate was a witch,
okay. You base those allegations on what?
Mr. MARQUIS: On when I was in, myself.
I'm not the only one who knows this information. Anybody who was
in witchcraft during that time can tell you the same thing.
WINFREY: That Sharon Tate was a
practicing witch?
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes. As a matter of
fact, the Illuminati-
WINFREY: I have no information to
refute it so I'm only going on what you're saying.
Mr. MARQUIS: The Illuminati sent
Charles Manson in to kill her. If you remember, she was killed,
one leg was strung up from the rafter, her hands behind her, her
throat sliced open. There is a tarot, 78 cards in a tarot deck.
You look at the 12th major arcane one, it looks like the hangman.
That's exactly how Sharon Tate-La Bianca was left. Charles Manson
did not go into prison; he volunteered to go in.
WINFREY: So you're saying that Charles
Manson came from this group, the Illuminati.
Mr. MARQUIS: He's one of the most
powerful wizards alive today.
WINFREY: And that it was a part
of this whole witch plan.
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes.
WINFREY: And are you also saying
that as a practicing high priest and a former witch, that you
participated in human sacrifices?
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact,
my group, we did.
WINFREY: You did.
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes.
WINFREY: You have actually stood
there, sat there, and watched somebody's throat slashed?
Mr. MARQUIS: It would be either
kids, grown-ups, animals. And the thing is, we didn't body bag
these people afterwards. We'd just take them, throw them in the
woods, the side of the road on a highway. Somebody's going to
find them.
WINFREY: We will be right back.
[commercial break]
WINFREY: You can't argue if he says
he was a high priest and that's what he saw and that's what they
did, fine. But I think what we need to establish here, what you're
saying is that there is a difference between satanism and witchcraft.
Mr. STRIEBER: A great difference.
But there's also a lot more. That made me so sad to hear that.
First of all, for him and the suffering that must be in this poor
man.
Mr. MARQUIS: I'm not suffering.
I'm feeling great.
Mr. STRIEBER: If he has indeed participated
in the killing of another human being, he's suffering from the
rest of his life, in all seriousness.
Mr. MARQUIS: You know, as a matter
of fact, when I became a born-again
WINFREY: Now you have to let him
finish. Thank you.
Mr. STRIEBER: Now, he wrote this
little document that your office has that I was given parts of
to read.
WINFREY: I, Witch.
Mr. STRIEBER: Yeah. He says there
are three million witches. I just want to - of his ilk in New
England. He says they participate in human sacrifice. Now, here
is the truth. There are 14.6 million people in New England, 5.9
million of them are Catholics, 1.6 million of them are Protestants,
according to the United States Census 1980. Now, there can't be
twice as many witches as Protestants in New England. Come on.
WINFREY: But if you are a witch
- let me just ask you this here, Whitley - if you are a witch,
is it something, particularly after hearing him speak, is it something
you want to come out and tell people that you are? So if you are
a practicing witch, would you even admit it? So who knows who
the witches are?
Mr. STRIEBER: The courage that it
takes to get up here for a witch is great, yes. But-
they're doing something good, they're doing something wonderful.
Mr. LARSON: It's called publicity,
not courage.
Mr. MARQUIS: Human sacrifice is
anything but wonderful.
Mr. STRIEBER: Well, then why are
you here?
Mr. LARSON: I'm here because I was
invited to be here. I don't need the publicity. I've got my own
talk show every day. She needs it and that's why she's here.
WINFREY: Are you here because of
publicity, Laurie?
Ms. CABOT: Absolutely not. If I
never have another TV show, another interview on a newspaper,
I'm still going to look the same, I'm still going to put the eye
makeup on, I'm still going to be a witch, I'm still going to practice
meditation and healing and balance. I'm going to do my magic because
it's our way of life. And the one thing that other religions are
afraid of us and have demeaned us for is because we do our own
magic. We are attributed with our own miracles. As well as our
god and goddess doing miracles, creating the universe and the
earth and the earth mother and the sun, and those kinds of terms
that we use for the energy of the god and goddess, we also are
a part of the god and goddess. And we are attributed to do our
own magic, to heal our-selves, to keep our families healed, to
keep food on the table, a roof over your head and be protected,
and to keep the animals growing and the earth growing and the
plants. That's part of our ways. Those are our ways of life.
WINFREY: May I ask you this? If
you really don't want this negative attention, although I know
you have the right to dress and look and be whatever you want
to be, why the dark makeup and the black garb?
Ms. CABOT: Because this is traditional.
Black robes are our tradition, like Catholics, the priests and
nuns and rabbis wear black. The High Dalai Lama wears black. It's
our tradition, so it's our right. I made a dedication as a political
statement to dress in our traditional clothing for the rest of
my life, because we can't do it. Because she could be a witch,
she could be a witch, he could be a witch, and no one would know
it because we're not green and ugly, wearing long, black robes.
And I wanted to stand out and say, "Wait a minute. I'm not
a harmful person. I have children. I'm a healer. I love this earth.
I love this universe. I am a part of the god and goddess, and
I want to show you that I'm a human being and I do not do evil.
We do not do evil." And we
WINFREY: Would you-
Ms. CABOT: Let me tell you why we
went silent. We had nine million people burned, hanged and tortured
under the wrong definition of witch. That means every family had
someone tortured and hanged and burned. It was a terrible time-
Mr. LARSON: That's a myth and- [crosstalk]
Ms. CABOT: It's true. And we went
silent.
Mr. LARSON: There's no documentation
of that.
Ms. CABOT: We swore to secrecy and
we went underground. It was the wrong thing to do, because it
left a gray area where you people could say anything at all about
us.
WINFREY: You're saying the Salem
witch trials is not documented?
Mr. LARSON: Of course they took
place. But those inflated statistics have been battered around
for years, and she's giving this pretty little sermon.
Ms. CABOT: What, 19 people in Salem?
Mr. LARSON: The ultimate issue is
what happens when you die. The Bible addresses the issue as heaven
or hell; she's going to address it as coming back as whatever
in terms of reincarnation.
Ms. CABOT: I didn't say that.
Mr. LARSON: I want to know what
she does-
Ms. CABOT: I believe reincarnation-
Mr. LARSON: If we're going to talk
about religion, I want to know what the sexual ethic is, I want
to know how they deal with the problem of suffering, how they
deal with the nature of eternity, not all this warm, fuzzy gobbledygook.
What is your sexual ethic?
Ms. CABOT: What is my sexual ethic?
Mr. STRIEBER: What is your sexual
ethic? You tell us first.
Mr. LARSON: Read the Ten Commandments.
You're a Catholic. You know what they are.
Mr. STRIEBER: You tell us your sexual
ethic.
Mr. LARSON: I can tell you. Look
in the Bible and you'll find out my sexual ethic.
Ms. CABOT: Excuse me, can I say
one of the Ten Commandments? [crosstalk]
WINFREY: You can say it when we
come back, after this. We will be back.
[commercial break]
WINFREY: Laurie? Yes.
Ms. CABOT: Yes. I just wanted to
repeat one of the Ten Commandments that I think he just broke:
thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Mr. LARSON: How did I break
that?
Ms. CABOT: Because you're saying
things against me that are not true. You're making up stories
about things that I believe.
Mr. LARSON: I was talking generically
in broad categorizations regarding witchcraft.
Ms. CABOT: No, we're not. I'm trying
to be very specific.
Mr. LARSON: Well, be specific.
Ms. CABOT: I am.
Mr. LARSON: What do you do with
the nature of suffering? What do you do with the nature of eternity?
You have a religion; tell us about eternity. What happens when
you die?
Ms. CABOT: Well, that's your belief.
How do you know-
Mr. LARSON: I'm asking yours.
Ms. CABOT: I believe that we go
on forever? I mean, you're assuming an awful lot.
Mr. LARSON: Reincarnation is a standard
tenet of witchcraft
Ms. CABOT: Why are you assuming
that you know what I believe?
WINFREY: What did you say about
reincarnation?
Mr. LARSON: Reincarnation is a standard
tenet of witchcraft
Mr. STRIEBER: Standard tenet of-
WINFREY: There are a lot of people
who believe in reincarnation, however, that are not witches. And
I would like to ask you, does she not have the right to practice
whatever religion she chooses to practice?
Mr. LARSON: Absolutely. Perfectly.
WINFREY: What is it that you have
against her religion? L£t me ask you, is it because it's
not Christian, because she doesn't believe what you believe, that
it's wrong?
Mr. LARSON: It's because there is
an eternity, there is a heaven, there is a hell.
WINFREY: That's what you believe,
though.
Mr. LARSON: That's what God says.
We're either going to believe what God-
WINFREY: That's what the God you
serve says.
Mr. LARSON: That's what the Bible
says, and that's what the God of the Scriptures says, and one
either does objectively accept-
WINFREY: Okay, so what about. the
Hindus and the Buddhists and the Moslems, are they all wrong?
Mr. LARSON: God so loved the world,
He gave His only begotten son
WINFREY: Answer the question.
Mr. LARSON: Jesus Christ-
WINFREY: Answer the question. [crosstalk]
Mr. STRIEBER: He won't answer it
directly.
Mr. LARSON: I'm answering the question.
[crosstalk]
Ms. CABOT: Christianity is a minority
religion.
Mr. LARSON: If you believe in Jesus
Christ, you are saved.
WINFREY: But let me ask you this.
Does that mean if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, if you are
Jewish and you don't believe in Jesus Christ, or if you are of
other religions and you don't believe in Jesus Christ, are they
as wrong as the people who practice witchcraft?
Mr. LARSON: The Bible posits where
to go in the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and
that every individual is judged according to their conscience
and the like knowledge of God they have according to the revelation
of God as they have sought God beholding His wonder in the creation.
[crosstalk]
WINFREY: But that's your interpretation
of the Bible. That's your-
Mr. LARSON: That is historic Christianity.
Mr. STRIEBER: Christianity is getting
a bad rap up here, and I want to defend it, because I am a Catholic,
and I apologize for him.
Mr. LARSON: You apologize for witches
and you're going to defend Christianity?
Mr. STRIEBER: Christianity is about
love, gentleness, openness, acceptance. We all know that this
is true, this is the truth in our hearts. It is not about this
rejecting, being close-minded, being afraid. They're afraid. He's
afraid.
Mr. LARSON: Afraid of what? What's
he afraid of?
Mr.STRIEBER: He's- believe me, these
people
WINFREY: Joseph, yes? Because you
now are a born-again Christian.
Mr. MARQUIS: Christian, right. I
was raised a Catholic.
Mr. STRIEBER: A Catholic, a witch,
he's everything.
MARQUIS: See, it was a great- I'll
answer that. You see, back then I was just as afraid as any other
witch of being caught. What I did, I taught Sunday school as a
Catholic.
Mr. STRIEBER: Look, I think-
WINFREY: Please let him finish.
I want to hear what he has to say.
Mr. MARQUIS: If anybody tried to
pin anything on me, I could just go to the priest. They would
say, "Wait a second, this guy is a long, faithful Catholic."
[crosstalk]
Mr. STRIEBER: But he's saying he
taught Sunday school as a Catholic, and we don't have Sunday schools.
We don't have- now, wait a minute. There's some flim-flam going
on here, OPRAH.
WINFREY: Where did you teach Sunday
school?
Mr. MARQUIS: It was called St. Mary's.
It's in Lawrence, Massachusetts.
Mr. STRIEBER: St. Mary's, which
one? Which one?
Mr. MARQUIS: In Lawrence, Mass.,
there's only one.
Mr. LARSON: Don't get so uptight.
WINFREY: I want to know. So you
say you taught Sunday school. [crosstalk] Please let's talk one
at a time. You taught Sunday school as a way of disguising your...
Mr. MARQUIS: Right. I was as afraid
as most other witches then of being caught. There was a lot of
turmoil going on. Now, I don't care if you call it white, gray,
luciferianism, satanism, the earth mother religion, you have to
consider where is the source. The source is all in the one saint,
and it doesn't come from God. There is one other thing, though.
WINFREY: Where does it come from,
you claim?
Mr. MARQUIS: It comes from Satan.
Ms. CABOT: That's their belief system.
They have a Satan. I don't even have a Satan.
Mr. MARQUIS: That is a fact.
WINFREY: Can you accept the fact
that perhaps maybe there are people who practice it, but maybe
she's absolutely telling us the truth?
Mr. MARQUIS: Oh, as a matter of
fact-
WINFREY: That she's a good witch.
Mr. MARQUIS: -according to her knowledge,
she is. I believe every single word this lady over here is saying.
Because the thing is, I was fed that same line when I first began.
Ms. CABOT: By whom?
WINFREY: So at what time is she
going to be fed a different line? Does she have to go higher up
in the hierarchy of witchdom and then discover-
Mr. MARQUIS: Well, she is an established
witch of Salem, okay. She's going to be there forevermore, probably.
Unless you get into some of the real big organizations, like the
Illuminati, okay, in the Illuminati, once you get past the third
level they will tell you what's really going on.
WINFREY: You say there is no Illuminati?
Ms. CABOT: Give me an address.
Mr. STRIEBER: What is it? It doesn't
exist.
Ms. CABOT: Give me a phone number
and an address. I'll call them. I'd like to know who these people
are.
WINFREY: We'll be right back. [Commercial
break]
WINFREY: I think what's confusing
to those of us in the audience here is that neither
side refuses to accept the fact that each side exists. You did,
however, say that you believe that she is right-or that she at
least believes what she says is true. You say that the illuminati,
this cult of witches, doesn't exist. What if-
Mr. STRIEBER: I think there's flim-flam
going on down at the end or the stage. I've got to be just very
plain-spoken about it.
WINFREY: In what way?
Mr. LARSON: [unintelligible] please.
Mr. STRIEBER: Past you. No, you're
for real, sadly enough.
WINFREY: In what way do you consider-
Mr. STRIEBER: Well, I've got to-
he says in his book there are three million witches in New England.
He says they're practicing human sacrifice. I had my researchers
yesterday call 10 police departments in New England. No one had
heard anything about any human sacrifices taking place in their
towns in the past five years. And it cannot be kept secret.
WINFREY: Let me ask you this. What
about all the children's- we did a show, one of the most poignant
shows that I recall, with a 10-year old boy, 10-year-old boy who
had been brought into a cult. Whether they called themselves witches,
whether they called themselves satanists, this child had been
brought into a cult, witnessed human sacrifices and said what
they do, just as Joseph has said to us today, they throw the bodies
away or they burn the bodies. And there are missing children,
missing people all over this country. Just because, Whitley, nobody
has found the bodies and nobody called in to a newspaper and said
human sacrifices are going on, doesn't mean that it does not exist.
Mr. STRIEBER: You're right, OPRAH.
There may be something terrible happening in this United States.
That's very true.
WINFREY: And I think it's unfortunate
that we close our eyes to the fact that some-thing terrible is
happening in these United States. It doesn't mean that they are
doing it, but for you to say it doesn't exist says to me that
you're closing your eyes.
Mr. STRIEBER: No, it's not true.
Ms. CABOT: It exists, but I think
you're aggrandizing it. I don't think there's millions of people
out there doing that. I think there's people who are skulking
under rocks somewhere doing that kind of stuff. It's illegal and
it's nasty. It's totally against our way of life. It terrifies
me.
WINFREY: Okay, I accept that.
Ms. RUFFNER: What I hear is that
everybody, everyone, is giving away their power to discriminate
in the present moment what is good for them, what is their truth.
I mean, if you are in a group and you cannot tell that that group
has about it the kind of people and energy that would include
human sacrifice, then you're sadly not in touch with something.
And if it matters to you whether they say they're a witch or a
Catholic or a Buddhist or anything, if you have to look at that
before you can look at a person and say, "I see you, and
I see who you are," then-
Mr. MARQUIS: No, you see a lot of
us - excuse me - a lot of us were too afraid to
get out. You see, most people who belong to the illuminati, you
get out within 24 hours, you have nothing less than a $10,000
bounty put on your head.
WINFREY: Who's going to pay it?
Mr. MARQUIS: They don't care how
it's collected.
WINFREY: Who's going to pay the
bounty?
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact,
the Illuminati has their own hitmen.
Ms. CABOT: Who is he talking about?
Mr. STRIEBER: I don't know what
he's talking about. He's crazy.
Mr. MARQUIS: Oh, they do. As a matter
of fact, Dr. Adam Wieshopf [?] in 1776 established this order.
As a matter of fact, it was supposed to be a new world order,
as he called it, getting the brightest, the best of intelligent
people to guide and to control the earth.
WINFREY: So what's going to happen
to you for speaking out against the Illuminati?
Mr. MARQUIS: I've already had six
attempts on my life. They have failed so far.
Ms. CABOT: They're very bad at their
magic.
Mr. MARQUIS: I know people- [crosstalk]
Mr. STRIEBER: They're [unintelligible]
but they missed him.
WINFREY: We'll be back. [commercial
break]
WINFREY: So what you're trying to
tell us is that there are people who practice evil
under the guise of being witches.
Mr. STRIEBER: They call themselves
witches in order- and it does two things. It gives witches a bad
rap, and it creates a completely false impression about what real
witches do. Witches want to save their word. They want their word
to belong to them, and I don't blame them. They have a right to
hear words.
Mr. LARSON: Do they do hexes and
spells?
Mr. STRIEBER: You answer that question.
Ms. CABOT: No. Hexes and spells-
the word "spell" does not equate with evil.
Mr. LARSON: You've never done a
hex or a spell?
Ms. CABOT: Not a hex.
Mr. LARSON: Have you put a spell
on somebody?
Ms. CABOT: Yes. Spells are prayers.
They are projections.
Mr. LARSON: No, have you ever put
a spell on- [crosstalk]
Mr. STRIEBER: You are twisting her
words.
Ms. CABOT: You want to ask me? You're
twisting my words.
Mr. LARSON: I'm asking, have you
put a spell on somebody?
Ms. CABOT: Yes.
Mr. LARSON: And what did you do
to him?
Ms. CABOT: I healed them.
Mr. LARSON: Only healed them?
Ms. CABOT: That's right.
Mr. LARSON: Never done evil?
Ms. CABOT: No, I don't do evil.
Mr. LARSON: Good, glad to hear that.
Wonderful.
Ms. CABOT: You should be glad, because
if I was a black witch you'd probably be in trouble right now.
[laughter]
Mr. LARSON: No, no, Jesus Christ
in me and the power of the Holy Spirit is greater than anything
that's in you.
Mr. STRIEBER: OPRAH, you think you
can grab the show back from us?
WINFREY: I don't know why I even
came here today. Yes?
Mr. MARQUIS: OPRAH, there was a
book that was published by Dr. Raymond Buckland. It's called Practical
Candleburning. It will show you how, as a witch, you can use
ceremonies with candles to cast spells. Now, that will be on the
left hand side of what-ever page you re looking at. Now, if you
look on the right hand side of the page, you'll see how they're
going to tell you, you can use the Holy Scriptures to cast spells.
Mr. STRIEBER: Now, wait a minute.
Let's ask, who exactly wrote this book?
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact,
how does that equate with what God is telling us with witchcraft?
God said that thou shall not suffer a witch to live. That was
back then. Nowadays-
Ms. CABOT: No, it didn't say that.
I know what the original scripture said.
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact,
the punishment back then was stoning by death.
Mr. LARSON: You're going to tell
us what the Bible says? [crosstalk] What does it say?
Ms. CABOT: King James, "thou
shalt not suffer a poisoner to live" in Greek.
Mr. LARSON: And what does it say
in Revelations Number One about- [crosstalk]
WINFREY: One at a time.
Ms. CABOT: -and added the word "witch"
so that he could hang and burn and torch them. You can make any
use of a word-
Mr. MARQUIS: She knows a different
Greek than- [crosstalk]
WINFREY: One at a time. Yes?
Mr. MARQUIS: She said it was from
the Greek. The scripture quotation I just said comes from the
Hebrew. It's not Greek. As a matter of fact-[crosstalk]
Ms. RUFFNER: Oh, here you go. How
many people here speak Hebrew? How many people-
Mr. MARQUIS: As a matter of fact,
you will find it-
WINFREY: One at a time. I'm going
to commercial. Forget it. [Commercial break]
WINFREY: Bob, your position is what?
We should fear them, we should-
Mr. LARSON: Absolutely. I have absolutely
no fear of this person, any hexes or spells or anything.
Ms. CABOT: Good, because I don't
do them.
Mr. LARSON: I think that we should
understand witchcraft is based upon the false worship of a fallen
angel who was defeated by Jesus Christ at the cross, and witchcraft
has absolutely no power to the child of God who has been born
again. The name of Jesus Christ is the power over witchcraft,
and if anybody's afraid about any witch anywhere, all they've
got to do is get on their knees and ask God for help and strength
to overcome that power. Greater is Christ in me than anything
she has in her, around her or-
WINFREY: And you agree? You're in
agreement.
Mr. MARQUIS: Yes, as a matter of
fact, a very good friend of mine, Gilbert Gomez, he's going to
be working with me and my pastor. We're going to be trying to
form some type of outreach for these people who sincerely want
out. As a matter of fact, I couldn't agree with this man more
because he just stated exactly what the Holy Scriptures just said.
Witchcraft is a threat.
WINFREY: Okay. You say, however?
Ms. CABOT: I say that we are loving
people, we are not a threat. We don't believe in Satan, we don't
have their devils. And we don't do things that way. If people
would like to understand us more, we've been in the dark so long,
we're trying to help explain what we are and we're trying to be
open about it. I have a newsletter called The Witch's Companion.
If people want to write in for it, they can do that, and then
maybe they can begin to understand. We're not trying to recruit
anybody either.
WINFREY: Okay. Thank you all. It's
been interesting.
~
GERALDO
Excerpt from Geraldo Rivera's talk show program of October 27, 1988:
GERALDO: Now Whitley, you're
not a witch-
STRIEBER: No, I'm not. I was doing
research for my book, Cat Magic, when I discovered
that the craft, wicca, was not evil and satanic at all like I
had assumed it was before. In fact, what it was was a very beautiful
earth-oriented religion, an ancient nature religion, like native
American religion...It is another beautiful religion. And it is
a terribly important one right now because of it's emphasis on
the planet and on the needs of the planet. Our earth is in deep
trouble and a religion like this can really help us today. ...I
would like to say something right now. And that is I am a Christian
too, a Catholic, and all I have to say is this: When one starts
to think in onesself that the other man's religion is evil, you
have to look in your own heart, because that's where something
is really wrong.~